<CENTER><H1> ARCHIVED RESEARCH INQUIRIES and RESPONSES</H1></CENTER></P>

Thermogeneration of electricity

Thermogeneration of electricity by Fil Graff, Guild Secretary (fgraff@comcast.net)
Posted: Sep. 29, 1999 @ 09:34.
Refs: Q&A archived inquiry #233
Aladdin Knights Bulletin Board question 957
www.lanternnet.com/lanterns_lufo.html
In May of this year, Ralph Schoeneborn found a Russian WW II era thermogenerating lamp (Archived inqy #233). Recently, in what started as a very funny (at least to me) string on the Knights BB (question #957 "Why 2K?"), the subject of generating electricity from the waste heat from a lamp has come up again.
It seems that there is more than humor interest in this process! In conversation with Don Dowell, I have raised the question of actual practicality of such a device, given today's perhaps better materials to build such a device, and the transistorized electronic output devices that would likely need much less power than the old WW II radios the Russians had available.
I have put all the various sources cited up here (at least in direct HOT LINKS) so everything can be in one place for easy reference. IF there is any practicality to this concept (obviously, a thermal pile the size of a Volkswagen would be of little practical use, if it took one that size to generate the 300 to 400 watts needed to power a computer and monitor), I invite interested parties to use this forum as a meeting place to post ideas, etc. A special password will be assigned for this particular inquiry, so anyone can participate. Please e-mail the Secretary for the password. This might be fun!
The initial part is a VERY long file; I apologize for the loading time! :: Fil Graff ::
Click for Archived Question #233
Click for Commercial Lantern w/ thermal generator

Aladdin Knights Bulletin Board Question 957.
Why 2 k? by Bobby Dempsey (rdaystrm@cei.net) Posted: Sep. 26, 1999 @ 07:50
I haven't been very concerned about being in the dark come January 1, 2000. I think most Knights are hoping for a major week or two long power outage. It would be great to be forced to use our lamps and depend on them like the people who originally purchased them. I bet we would all have a new perspective after two weeks of darkness.
My major concern was my computer so I just used a little reverse logic. (So many of the lamps have been converted to elecricity.) I converted my computer to Kerosene and it works great. I am concerned about it's collectable value later down the road though. To date none of my old electronics have gained any status on the collector's market. My $1500 Betamax is holding down a shelf in the storage shed. My old reel to reel has long since been recycled.
In view of all that I wasn't too hesitant about converting the computer to kerosene. It seems to work well as long as I don't turn the screen up too bright too quickly as that will cause it to suddenly get all black and sooty. (I'm working on that problem) I have the chimney coming out of the top of the monitor and have found that I can download things quite a bit faster with the high altitude chimney. Unfortunately this is a no oil fill model. What a pain. I have to put kerosene in quite often and it only holds about 12 ounces. I found a convenient "cup holder " that comes out of the computer tower when a button is pushed so I keep my lamp oil bottle sitting there ready to pour in. Well I'll be disappointed if January 1 doesn't find us waking up to the darkness that our Aladdins are so good at eliminating. You can bet I'll be posting something that day if I don't run out of kerosene. I wonder if diesel fuel would work??? Bobby Dempsey
On Sep. 26, 1999 @ 08:18, Gene Kuentzler (engr19@earthlink.net) wrote:
Hello Bobby, Thanks for the helpful information, but now I'm even more confused than ever.... All along I thought Why 2 K was that loud music band my teenaged daughter listens to. Gene Kuentzler
On Sep. 26, 1999 @ 08:23, Jim deVeer (jimdeveer@juno.com) wrote:
Bobby, The problem is that you haven't kept your stuff long enough. That betamax will be worth something someday, it's just that we may not be around to enjoy the spoils. We all need to build museum quality storage facilities outback (barn) and will the security code (bolt cutters) to our children. As for the sooty screen, I think that if you trim your monitor you will have much better luck. Jim
On Sep. 26, 1999 @ 09:39, Doug Finch (dbf@aladdinknights.org) Ž wrote:
Right there with you, Bobby. Even converted my digital camera to kerosene!
On Sep. 26, 1999 @ 11:08, John in England (sirjohncla@aol.com)wrote:
Now its almost dark at six again, I operate my computicator by the light of a Model 11 over me chair - that's probably why I type such rubbish!! John in England
On Sep. 26, 1999 @ 16:35, Pete Jackson (sam@salisbury.net) wrote:
Works pretty good ,the clear kero works best,but I had to move my tower because it kepy sooting up my screen.--Pete
On Sep. 26, 1999 @ 19:31, Dim Wick (fgraff@comcast.net) Ž wrote:
Bobby: Darn good thing you don't have a work station set up like Doug's! With the chimbley coming out the top of the monitor, you'd set the whole shelf system afire, and burn up all those HTML manuals! :: Dimmy ::
On Sep. 26, 1999 @ 22:03, Bolen Coogler (bcoogler@dscga.com) wrote:
Truth is sometimes stranger than fiction. I have found a kerosene powered radio at http://www.lanternnet.com/lanterns_lufo.html . Basicly, it's a modified Dietz-style hurricane lantern with a radio and "thermal" battery. The radio runs off the heat energy of the lantern. If one could buy thermal batteries and put 'em on top of Aladdins, I wonder how much "fire power" would drive a laptop computer? :-) --Bolen
On Sep. 27, 1999 @ 00:10, Tony Tripp (tonytr1@hotmail.com) wrote:
Bolen, I believe the device you describe is called a thermopile. The electricity is produced by a chemical reaction between the hot and cold sides of the thermopile, the greater the difference between the two sides the more output. I have wondered just how much electricity you could get out of an Aladdin with one of these on the chimney. It would make a dandy winter project for the Dim Wick. Take Care, Tony
On Sep. 27, 1999 @ 12:28, Doug Finch (dbf@aladdinknights.org) Ž wrote:
Somebody in Engineering should check my work, but I dug around and came up with this:
1 watt = 3.413 Btu/hr
Aladdin Lamp Output ~ 2500 Btu
2500 btu / 3.413 = 732 watts
A typical Laptop runs around 150 - 200 Watts; so if a thermopile is capable of reaching 27% efficiency, then one lamp could easily power a laptop. For desktop/tower systems, the CRT is a big energy eater. My 17" monitor is rated at 1.8 Amps, or around 216 Watts (Volts*Amps ~ Watts). Add that to the Power Supply in the desktop/tower system and I'm guessing around 366 Watts total. Still less than the total output of an Aladdin. I've got a TrippLite Car Transformer rated at 300 Watts for converting 12V DC to 120 V AC. Maybe with a good thermopile, you could power a laptop! What a riot!
On Sep. 27, 1999 @ 16:38, Smart Ash (dowell@got.net) wrote:
I had been considering doing some experiments in this regard with my blue flame heater. Part of my job for the last twenty years has been constructing thermocouples and t/c sets, testing them and installing and repairing them. Temperature measurement is my life; I guess that's why I like Aladdins so much...Don======>The Smart Ash
On Sep. 29, 1999 @ 15:52, Steve Peterson (speterson@inficad.com) Ž wrote:
It is possible to run a laptop from a (fairly large) thermopile, but do we want to be running that many Aladdins at once? Take a look at http://www.globalte.com/generators.htm. To produce a goodly number of watts, those are some seriously big boxes there. The power calc. sheet would show you how much you would need to run your laptop.
Now, if we convert the propane to kerosene, and added a bunch of model 23 burners...
On Sep. 27, 1999 @ 17:33, Dan (Maineknight@hotmail.com) wrote:
Sorry guys, but the Russians have already beaten you to it. If you go to the archives over at the "International Guild of Lamp Researchers" and look up post #233, I think you will find some really interesting reading. I'm only guessing, but I think a common thermocouple's output is measured in millivolts, and a thermopile consists of a number of thermocouples connected in series. Regards......Dan
On Sep. 27, 1999 @ 19:32, Bolen Coogler (bcoogler@dscga.com) wrote:
Checked the Web site. Cool lantern. I do have to wonder though; if the Russian lamps where made in the 1950's, then these lamps had to power tube radios, not the relatively low-powered microchip driven radios of today. At least, I assume radios today use less power, when you strip off the extra speakers, CD and tape player, etc. Any guesses on the power requirements of a 1950's tube radio vs. a modern laptop computer? We may have an Aladdin-powered computer yet. (Disclaimer: Hey, I'm a database administrator, not an engineer.) --Bolen
On Sep. 27, 1999 @ 20:20, Smart Ash (dowell@got.net) Ž wrote:
I've heard about what the Russians did although I've never seen one. I think that the way that I have envisioned it might be a little different. I've been custom welding thermocouples of all types (even type W's - if you can imagine welding tungsten and rhenium), and I think with the large volume of air that my two inch burner produces, you can generate a good many EMF's. Gotta go, email directly for more particulars... Don==========>The Smart Ash

On Sep. 30, 1999 @ 09:55, Ralph Schoeneborn (rasc0003@stud.uni-sb.de) wrote:
I have just read the inquiries about the thermoelectric lamps. In searching for further information about my old lamp, the following web address has been very helpful for me. It's a forum about all kinds of people interested in thermoelectricity. Perhaps also interesting for this research? The address is : "http://www.zts.com/"
Best wishes, Ralph
- On Sep. 30, 1999 @ 10:28, Fil Graff (fgraff@comcast.net) wrote:
  Friends: I went to the site ralph mentioned, and did some quick searching thru the extensive LINKS. For instance, a company in California, Hi-Z Technologies ofers several products that seem to provide (to this definately NON-engineer!) useful ideas:
  1) the HZ-20GA Demo generator:
  This unit weighs 20 pounds, and generates 20 watts. It is propane fueled; the heat sinks aree cooled by 2 small 12 volt DC fans. I DC>DC converter derives the fans, the second produces external power at a nominal 12V DC.
  OK...but the WEIGHT of the complete uniut suggests we have a problem using a LAMP as a heat source?
  2) HZ-20 Thermoelectric module:
  Bismuth Telluride-based semiconductors. The source of electric power is "ANY source of heat". It's a 19 watt module, with the hot side design temp 450 deg F, and the cold side design temp 85 deg F. The maximum continuous temperature is 480 deg F, and the max. intermittent temp is 750 deg F. Load voltage: 2.38 volts, and open circuit voltage 5 volts. The minimum efficiency is 4.5%.
  OK...perhaps the semiconductor system is too temperature sensitive for a lamp, and the old bi-metal thermocouple would suit us better? The efficiency listed is MINIMUM, but the range doesn't seem to come near Doug's 25+%, and 10 of these modules would be need to get to the ca 400 watts Doug suggests.
  I may have strayed into a dead end not knowing what I was looking for, but I still have the sinking feeling that the thermogeneration of electricity from a lamp chimney is going to require a HUGE thermal pile, and costs that would cripple the US Pentagon budget! :: Fil ::
On Sep. 30, 1999 @ 11:22, Secretary (fgraff@comcast.net) wrote:
Attached is some related correspondence sent to The Secretary:
From: Dan Gommel
To: Don Dowell
Date: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 6:16 PM
Subject: Aladdin BB #957
Don, I enjoyed your comments on thermocouples and your interest in the possible use with an Aladdin. I would like to take you up on your offer to share some particulars on the subject.
I know for a fact that there was research done on this, using Aladdin glass lamps with B burners. [Secretarys note: Dan has been pursuing several such lamps with thermopile shades (similar to the Russian lamp, shown on the Guild Q&A question 233), evidently saved by a now-deceased GE technical employee, for YEARS. Things move somewhat slower in New England! Details omitted here to protect the innocent.]
Regards......Dan

From: Don Dowell
To: Dan Gommel
Date: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: Aladdin BB #957
Hello Dan,
Well, you bear news to me! If someone has researched this already, I didn't know about it, but it doesn't surprise me. It's a natural. If you have pictures or drawings or anything tangible on the research I'd love to see it. I have to say, though, that the envisioned design I have been thinking about differs somewhat significantly from the Russian model that I saw the pic of. My idea involves a short glass chimney and a metal chimney extension (like a #5 or early #6 HL) which would have the t/c's on the inside and a connector on the outside. It being double-walled is important for a couple of reasons, but using Type E T/C's and some basic switching, I really think it'd be pretty easy to have a switchable 6-9-12 volt output. And yes, I'm pretty sure I can get 12 volts out of one. Not sure yet about the current though. I haven't really ever considered building one of these, but I know it will work.
Regards, Don
On Oct. 01, 1999 @ 11:21, Secretary (fgraff@comcast.net) wrote:
Additional Correspondence:
Steve Gibbs
wrote:
Doesn't that price rule them out? Also reading their application note on how to mount the module in compression; sounds like it is brittle and you would have to really take care in clamping it to something extremely flat. What do you think about using a Peltier in backwards mode? Steve
On Fri, 01 Oct 1999 08:21:46 -0700 Don Dowell
wrote
To: Steve Gibbs
CC: speterson@inficad.com, Maineknight@hotmail.com, Fil Graff
The way I was thinking about mounting them is as follows: imagine a double walled extension tube (they still make and sell them) with cut-outs in the outside brass which are nominally a bit smaller than the modules. The modules mount on the inside (hot side in - cold side out) and are held in place by heat sinks which are attached to the cold side from the outside by means of thermal epoxy. You could fit three in a row up the tube, and four rows around the tube for a total of twelve modules. The bottom of the tube assembly would sit on the shoulder of the chimney, and airflow (temperature control) would be regulated by baffles or holes at the bottom. This configuration would work with any Aladdin, you just slide it over your chimney and you still get the light output as well. I just need a cheaper TE module. As far as using a peltier device backwards, from what I have read, whatever their efficiency is normally is decreased by about 75% when running them backwards.
Comments, criticisms, and ideas always welcome...Don
Now it's in the hands of the Engineers! Us English majors should have little to say when the converstion turns to "backwards peltier devices!" :: Fil ::

On Oct. 01, 1999 @ 13:41, Don Dowell (dowell@got.net) wrote:
I suppose it's time to revisit the analog t/c concept. The big advantage that hits me over the head right away is the fact that there would be no upper end limit to the temperature exposure that the thermoelectric element sees. AWG 20 Type E wire is good for continuous use at temps up to 540°C (about 1000°F), and AWG 14 goes to 650°C (about 1200°F). The output of a single t/c at 540°C is a little over 40 mV, so getting a bunch of these into the hot air stream could generate a pretty large open circuit voltage. I just don't have a feel for how much of a load they can handle, though. None of the reams of material I have address their use for raw voltage generation, just temperature to EMF correlations.
As always, comments, criticisms and ideas encouraged... Don

On Oct. 01, 1999 @ 15:44, Chuck Hays (ponybike@hotmail.com) wrote:
So to get 12 volts regulated out of an Aladdin lamp with 40 mV coming from each tc...you'd need 345 of them to get 13.8 V to run through a regulator. Unless my math is completely off! It kinda sounds like that isn't going to give you much current. I'd say you'd be better off using the thing to power a smallish device or as a trickle charger instead of trying to power a laptop. So...I'm assuming that like most things electronic you can either have high voltage/low current or low voltage/high current? Remember too that the heat available will fall off in some predictable fashion as you move up the chimney...so some of those little buggers won't output at full level. Chuck

On Oct. 01, 1999 @ 20:15, Fil Graff (fgraff@comcast.net) wrote:
Don: I did about the same math Chuck posted, and came to the same conclusion. MILLIONS of sq. inches of tc panels, each putting out millivolts! It is my understanding that it was the very low output that caused the idea to be shelved years back. I'd hoped better materials and lower power requirements today would help. The wee radio in the LUFO is a converted 9 volt battery unit, I'd bet, just like the Walkman...no speakers! :: Fil ::

On Oct. 02, 1999 @ 00:07, Don Dowell (dowell@got.net) wrote:
I don't know, Fil...
I still firmly believe that the ONLY problem with my design is cost...If the Hi-Z modules were $13 instead of $130 it would be a slam-dunk...
I have come to the realization that the analog path will not work...semiconductors will ALWAYS beat descrete components; thats why I work for the "System on a Chip Company".
And believe me - I love my stock options...
Don

On Oct. 04, 1999 @ 09:58, Don Dowell (ddowell@lsil.com) wrote:
Back to the thermogeneration issue: it's nothing that can't be cured by throwing money at it. I figure about two grand, and you'll have plenty of power. Also consider, if you will, four of these charging a bank of deep cycle batteries which in turn power an AC inverter... With four running you'd be looking at just short of a Kilowatt of continous power.
I may be able to talk Sharon into us coming up with the dough for a proto unit - at least it'd be something to show off at the Gatherings.
Regards, Don

On Oct. 04, 1999 @ 12:12, Secretary (fgraff@comcast.net) wrote:
More correspondence:
TO: Don Dowell Mon, 04 Oct 1999 07:22
I rather thought that the cost-benefit ratio was skewed pretty heavily toward COST! :: Fil ::
TO: Fil Graff Mon, 04 Oct 1999 08:16
I think it's skewed pretty heavily toward cost, too. What is it the Pentagon calls these things? Oh yeah, Proof of concept prototypes. If I can do a demonstration unit for under two grand it would be nothing more that a curiosity - to go into real production the cost would be about half - still too much to be practical. I'd still like to have one, though. If only them Hi-Z modules were cheaper!
Regards, Don
TO: Don Dowell Mon 04 Oct 1999 12:55 EDT
Don: If it will cost $2000 for a prototype, then there is really no point in proceeding! Maybe we should document the conjectured design, current costs, and a cost-benefit ratio, and conclude that even today, the concept, though workable, has NO commercial or even hobby practicality? Is that about where we are, or am I slamming the door too early?
I haven't heard if Ralph Schoeneborn has made any progress with the Russian lamp. Maybe we should try and get it sent to you to play with in a "scientific" manner? It is 50 years old, and we don't know if it still works, but may be recreatable with modern materials. At least it would serve as a prototype. I also suggest a couple of ideas to Dan Gommel, so he could try again, this time to "borrow for research" (or better yet have DONATED to the Guild, and ultimately to the Aladdin Museum) one of the Aladdin chimney mount piles he has been chasing! If we had ONE old unit, we'd at least have something to play with! :: Fil ::
From: Don Dowell Mon, 04 Oct 1999 10:18
I would be VERY interested in seeing how either the Russian one or the GE unit (or both) were constructed. It wouldn't be the first time I've done reverse engineering.
I have yet to hear anything from the Ioffe Institute. They're doing charged-particle physics now, I think they probably thought my request was a joke. Yeah, right - seventy year old technology.
Regards, Don

On Oct. 04, 1999 @ 13:10, Chuck Hays (ponybike@hotmail.com) wrote:
I did some more thinking on this whole issue over the weekend. Even looking at the old Russian technology or the LUFO lamp, we're talking about miniscule amounts of power. You won't be powering much with what you get from an Aladdin-powered thermogenerator. As with most things like thermogenerators and dynamotors (remember them?), it's more a cheap way of producing what you need when you don't need much and you can live with the inherent inefficiency. I looked at the specs on the LUFO, and it doesn't even cover the whole BC band on either AM or FM. This leads me to suspect it's a radio-on-a-chip. That would have the advantage of low power requirements that could be filled by an 8-candlepower Dietz. As one of those freaks who regularly builds high-performance crystal radios (yes, it is possible) I know from experience that tickling the detector with just a few tens of millivolts will dramatically perk up your reception. You can even get the needed power out of a "lemon battery" where you stick a strip of copper and a strip of tin into a lemon and run wires. I realize that's beyond the scope of this discussion, I just use it to illustrate what can be done with low tech and tiny amounts of power. As far as whether it's feasible to manufacture one of our own, that's for the economists to decipher. If we can get hold of a working old or new specimen we can reverse-engineer. I'd say either we do that (kicking in a little from interested parties to buy a LUFO to play with...and how much *is* the darn thing anyway?) or else pursue building a thermogenerator of our own. At the very least we'll know more about it and it'll make interesting reading.

On Oct. 04, 1999 @ 19:41, Fil Graff (fgraff@comcast.net) wrote:
Chuck: AH! There is the answer I've been waiting to see! "we're talking about miniscule amounts of power. You won't be powering much with what you get from an Aladdin-powered thermogenerator." My impression from the start was that this pile only produced millivolts. The Russian lamp ("tens of thousands made", in a country at war, and with a poverty-ridden populace) I'd guess was designed to add the "tickle" to a cheap crystal radio (no power needed to operate, I understand) to improve reception. The item had to cost peanuts to make and sell, as did the radio. If the LUFO is what Chuck says, then all it is is the Russian radio remade, except modern (no FM on a crystal set!), and hung on a "modern" lantern, rather than a round wick lamp. All and all, is the LUFO just a Y2K creation that wouldn't sell for likely much more than the cheap Chinese Dietz itself, if this wasn't 1999? "Listen to the News when the power grid fails!" It's better with a battery powered portable, and likely a LOT cheaper!
I sure would like to see something powered by the waste heat of an Aladdin, but millivolts wouldn't light a "grain of wheat" bulb, would it? (Maybe not, but it WOULD light an LED!) Chuck still plays with crystal radios, but I prefer stereo. I grew up with big tube radios (no TV), and have gracefully made the transition from AM to FM, from 78, to 45 , to 33 and then stereo, to casette, to CD (missed wire, reel to reel tape and 8 track!) I agree that it would be nice to have the experience and documentation from building one of these things (the thermal pile), but am I right in saying that this now pretty much an intellectual excercise, not a world-shaking break through, or even anything that would make much economic sense? :: Fil ::

On Oct. 05, 1999 @ 09:35, secretary (fgraff@comcast.net) wrote:
The continuation of this string has been moved to below the related string on non-electrical thermal generation, etc. Please scroll down, and continue there! :: Fil ::

On Oct. 01, 1999 @ 20:27, Secretary (fgraff@comcast.net) wrote:
A copied posting from the Q&A Page:
Thermomechanical energy from lamps? by Steve Gibbs (steve@gibbs.net)
Posted: Oct. 01, 1999 @ 19:40.
This question was stimulated by Research Inquiry #19 but is off that subject.
I do know that lamps are meant for light! But a lamp like an Aladdin can also "take the chill off a room." Among the "other" uses of lamps, such as mentioned in RI#19, has anyone heard of a lamp's heat being used for running a small Stirling-cycle motor or a miniature steam engine? This question may be fodder for jokes, but actually it's a serious question. Thanks, Steve
On Oct. 01, 1999 @ 20:21, Fil Graff, Guild Secretary (fgraff@comcast.net) wrote:
Steve: I'm going to copy this question onto the Inquiry #19 page, but leave it here as well for any comments that may come in aside from the Research Inquiry.
Can one generate electricity from such a beast as you mention? :: Fil ::

On Oct. 02, 1999 @ 11:24, Steve Gibbs (steve@gibbs.net) wrote:
Your car has an alternator which is good at generating electricity from mechanical power. The trick is to generate mechanical power from heat. At the "antique engine & steam" show, I have seen running "heat engines" which use the cycle of expansion and contraction of air in a cylinder to turn a flywheel. Here are some links to read for the concept, and some examples:
http://www.iinet.com.au/~steveb/stirling/stirling.html
http://powerweb.lerc.nasa.gov/stirling/DOC/strlcycl.html
http://www.baileycraft.com/sol1pic.htm
http://www.thegrid.net/segray/stirling.html
And of course there is the steam engine, which has the added complication of a liquid but can be more remote from the heat source.

One would be smart to question the complexity and efficiency of a miniature motor & generator run by an aladdin lamp burner. That's why I'd like to hear your opinions! Steve

On Oct. 03, 1999 @ 10:20, Fil Graff (fgraff@comcast.net) wrote:
Steve, et al: This idea is easier to grasp for a layman than the thermal pile! The heat from an Aladdin chimney certainly should be enough to boil water, and thus create steam to drive a turbine generator. Again, my lack of Engineering theory shows! How big a turbine would one need to produce the ca. 400 watts to power a computer? Certainly THIS generation method had to be tried somewhere...it's so much simpler than the TC concept.
But when it comes to PRACTICE, are we just running into a different cost-benefit problem? :: Fil ::

On Nov. 12, 1999 @ 09:36, Robert Isdale (robev@zip.com.au) wrote:
[Secretary's Note: This posting was moved here from the Q&A page where it was posted by Robert Isdale.]
I think that you are on the right track, Steve , with the thermo/mechanical/electrical approach via a Stirling engine, rather than direct thermo/electric. But then I am somewhat technology biased, as I have 2 REECO Rider hot-air engines, which are the predecessors of the modern Stirling engines, in my backyard!
A very helpful web page on this subject is Bob Seir's . But more applicable to this discussion are the small power Stirling linear generators produced by Harwell Research Centre in the U.K., and aimed at providing low power requirements in remote areas for scientific recording instrumentation etc. The Harwell publication AERE 7753, 1974, covers the propane heated units. The commercial flow-on was taken up by A.G.A. Navigational Aids, with a 20 watt unit designed for remote maritime navigation beacons. These units were well reported in the February 1975 Popular Science magazine, page 82. Harwell state the gas consumption as 22 grammes per hour, or about 200kg per year. That's not much, and I would think that the principle could be scaled down to a smaller heat source.
From a thermo/electrical approach, Peltier devices have curious qualities. Electrical current is applied to special metal plates bonded together, and heat or cold is produced according to the polarity of the current. Automobile drink-cooler boxes are one use. Conversely if heat or cold is applied to the plate, a reaction called the Seeburg effect produces a very small electrical output. Something else to consider is the safety shut-off units in LP gas appliances. The sensor head produces 15-25 millivolts when heated, and this powers the solonoid in the fuel access valve. Flame out- no heat- no power, and the fuel flow is shut off. Fil's comment about a lamp heating water, reminds me of an illustration in someone's book of old lamps. It showed a kerosene wick lamp, with a metal water jacket surrounding the upper half of the chimney. Pipes from the jacket led upwards to a one cup sized reservoir, and presumably, this thermo-syphen system produced the hot water for a late night cup of coffee. It seem that the potential of our humble lamps is only just beginning.
Bob and Beverley Isdale, Australia

On Oct. 05, 1999 @ 09:18, secretary (fgraff@comcast.net) wrote:
I have moved the string of responses back toward the left side of the page to allow more room.
On Oct. 04, 1999 @ 13:31, Chuck Hays (ponybike@hotmail.com) wrote:
You can't keep an old reporter off the phone. I called the folks advertising the LUFO and here's the sum of that phone call: They are not able to give a cost figure for the device right now, because it isn't in production yet. (Added later: they expect to go into production within a week.) The phone rep (as are they all) was very enthusiastic, however. The cost as spec'ed on the Web would run about $150. They are "changing a couple of things" to get the retail down around $90. Personal opinion: it ain't gonna be a nickle-plated lamp. The "thermal battery" as they call it is being manufactured by a "gentleman in San Diego". While this begins to sound like a limited production Mom and Pop operation, the phone rep assured me "we plan to go big". That's where that one sits. A revisit to the spec sheet shows their receiver covering the whole FM band, but only a sliver of the AM band. Unless that's a typo, it sounds like they're downconverting to a secondary IF and feeding a pretty narrow bandwidth. Sounds to me like the kind of thing where they came up with a gadget and started looking for something nominally useful to do with it. Somebody suggested a radio and there you are.
[Secretary's comment: $90 ought to but one heck of a battery powered "Walkman"-type radio, which is also "Y2K Panic compliant"!! :: Fil ::]
On Oct. 04, 1999 @ 20:44, Dan (Maineknight@hotmail.com) wrote:
Hi to all of you! Sorry that I haven't been able to devote the time to this project that it deserves, but it isn't from my lack of interest! As to the Aladdins with attached thermopile shades which I have been after for several years: Be assured, I continue to pursue them. As far as I know, there are no papers, prints, data, etc. that the current owner has. In fact he (or myself) didn't even know what the "shades" were when I looked at them for the first time. It was only when I first saw Post #233 and Ralphs lamp picture that I understood just what I had found. To be honest with all of you, I was after the lamps and could have cared less about those strange lookin "shades". There is one thing that I should point out, and that is that there are four terminals on the Russian T/P with the possibilty of a fifth terminial at the bottom of the board. [Secretary's note: See letter to Ralph below on this subject.] On the Aladdins that I saw, there were only two wires. My guess is that the Russian version was producing two different voltages, primary and secondary. Old tube type radios which were battery powered employed an "A" and "B" battery. Perhaps Chuck can tell us if it's possible to soup up a crystal radio on the detector side as well as the amplifier side in order to improve the overall quality. I have reservations that the Russian T/P could ever generate enough power for a tube type radio. However, if millivolts were all that were required to soup up a crystal radio, well.....
It's just an idea/wild guess anyway. As far as the Aladdin T/P shades are concerned, I think that they may have been used in some sort of research project which may not have had anything to do with radios. Again, just a feeling.
Regards......Dan

FROM: Fil Graff, 04 Oct 1999 TO: Ralph Schoeneborn
Ralph: I found that the discussion of Thermogeneration of electricity had wandered a bit astray, and went back to your original submission (#233) to reread it. A few questions I had not thought of:
1) On the black electrical thingy hanging from the black wire attached to the vanes...what does the circuit look like on the back side? In front, I can see two posts in brass at left, and two black posts at right. There is also some sort of fifth post bottom center. It would help if we knew what the balck wire that is the input from the vanes is connected to. What I think I see is a two outlet system...two sets of positive and negative posts, with maybe a common ground device? If so, why TWO? If not, what IS the circuit? Maybe a photo of both sides close up would help.
2) What do you mean specifically by "Radio transmitter"? Somehow we all read "radio" as a sort of crystal set receiver that would allow Steppe dwellers to listen to radio Moscow or their local Party Chairman (My goodness, how my political views do intrude!) ...or whomever, but as a RECEIVER, not a transmitter. If there were 10,000 of them made, IS there one of the radios in captivity (so we could examine it, perhaps)?
3) Can you venture a guess as to what the vanes are made of? Also, is there a sign of asbestos being used as an insulator in the pile?
I don't know how I missed the questions at the start...wasn't until the Research Inquiry began to drift afield that my attention was called to these points. I hope you can answer them! :: Fil ::
From: Dr. Ralph Schoeneborn, rasc0003@stud.uni-sb.de, Tue, 5 Oct 1999 07:10
Hello, Fil. Most of these questions I have [bothered] me too and I have not yet found the answer.
A few days ago I got a copy of the original instruction manual of the unit! BUT it is written in Russian and for me it is impossible to get out any information; I am searching someone who can translate... it must be a person knowing some Physics AND the Russian language! I will see what I can do. It would be possible to send you a copy if you have an idea who could translate it to English then I will translate it to German. A new project for the Guild? [Is there anyone out there that both reads Russian and can translate it to English or German, AND has a bit of a background in Physics (or knows someone who can?) The latter perhaps not as critical as the former, but it might help eliminate confusion.]
For question three, I can say that there is a lot of asbestos used as isolator.
Also, in a photograph I found in a book written by A. Joffe (the inventor of the unit) there is pictured a big radio like we had here in Germany also in the 1950's (big wooden cases).
Other question: are you in contact with the guy selling the LUFO Lantern? I have contacted him by e-mail but he has not yet answered.
Best wishes, Ralph
FROM: Fil Graff on Tuesday, 05 Oct 1999
Ralph: If you could send me a hard copy of the document, maybe Heinz, or one of the other academics in the group knows a Russian speaker/translator. I have appealed for such a person in a note I added to your message when I posted it on the Inquiry page.
The "big box" in the photo would be a tube radio, I'd guess. From what I'm told, I can't see how the little chimney-mount pile could produce enough power to drive one! I guess we'll have to wait for the translation to be sure!
Please take a look at the black connector, and geta photo or drawing of what you see. Maybe if it is known how it is wired, someone can deduce what it was intended to do.
I also e-Mailed Kirkwood on the existance of the Russian predecessor to the LUFO (the ad text claims are nonsense!), but have heard nothing. :: Fil ::
On Oct. 05, 1999 @ 09:07, Chuck Hays (ponybike@hotmail.com) wrote:
Given the vintage of these things, I can't fathom what they could possibly have intended to power. Perhaps that's the problem...they put the darn things together and couldn't get a useful amount of power out of them. On the other hand, I have to believe there was *some* use envisioned. As far as crystal radios go, the millivolts you apply juice up the detector. Since a crystal radio is basically just a detector (or rectifier of AC), your amplifier is the basic Mark I Mod 0 ear. At the same time, I can't see someone using a crystal radio when they could cobble up a battery. WW2 was around the time miniature tubes were developed, but they still needed a couple of volts for filament and a little more than that for plate. Filament voltage for even one tube would have to flow at some appreciable fraction of an amp, which would tax a thermogenerator right there.
Historically, while the US had the transistor in crude form in 1947 it took the Japanese in the late '50s to bring the price down enough to be affordable. Russia still has a thriving electron tube industry, although that's convenience more than a technology gap. I just don't know. There must be some documentation hiding somewhere that holds the clue. [Secretary's note: Perhaps Ralph's instructions in Russian is the piece we need?] It would be interesting to plunk one of those LUFO generators into the top of a high-altitude chimney and see what 85 candlepower will do versus eight. It might be a short life but a merry one! Chuck

On Oct. 19, 1999 @ 21:26, Fil Graff (fgraff@comcast.net) wrote:
I attach an E-mail {addressed to Ralph Schoeneborn and myself] about the LUFO without comment. :: Fil :: Subject: Lufo Radio lantern
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 18:58:14 -0700
From: "Woody Kirkman"
Dear Gentlemen,
I apologize for the tardiness of this reply. Due to an error that was just found today, only half of our e-mail over the past three weeks made it to our office. We have rectified the problem and recovered the missing e-mails. Thank you for your patience.
In regards to your e-mails of Sept. 28th and 30th, The Russian thermal lamps designed fifty years ago were bulky, and reportedly were unreliable. Vocalux, the manufacturer of the LUFO has not tried to re-invent the wheel, but rather they have perfected a new method of manufacturing that was not available fifty years ago. Seven years of research has resulted in a superior product to it's Russian predecessors.
The Lufo thermal battery is made using a modern ceramic to encapsulate a series of thermocouples that are assembled using computer assisted lasers. The Lufo radio lamp operates on three volts generated solely from the thermal battery. I have witnessed the prototype unit operate in person, and must say that it is truly a remarkable device.
As we are still in the pre-production period, I do not have any firm pricing. May I direct your attention to the manufacturer's website http://www.vocalux.org/ for additional information.
It is cumbersome and slow, but I believe it may give you more insight to this incredible invention.

On Nov. 07, 1999 @ 10:17, Fil Graff, Guild Secretary (fgraff@comcast.net) wrote:
Friends: The Russian manual has arrived! It will be off to the various volunteer translators as soon as copies can be made and mailed.
Now, for your scientific curiosity, here are a few pages of images from the booklet (under the dicta of the old Russian folk saying: "an icon is worth at least a couple of rubles".) The whole system diagram tells me we ain't talking crystal set...the radio looks relatively modern. The circuit diagrams mean naught to me (I'm only a wickie, after all), but may provide you electrickeral experts with some grist for your thought mill! And a few phrases in Russian from the diagram should be quicker to translate than the whole brochure!
I can't identify a DATE for the product on the copy I have, but Gabor Miskolczy of the Thermo-Power Corporation, Waltham, MA, who provided the brochure, states the original box is labeled "Dr. George Hatsopoulos, 10/7/68". Dr. Hatsopoulos and Thermo Electron Corporation are to be acknowledged in any mention of this device and brochure. Consider the formalities of the acknowledgement done, at least for this particular Internet string. :: Fil ::

On Dec. 14, 1999 @ 19:43, Chuck Hays (ponybike@hotmail.com) wrote:
Well...I'm looking at this copy of the instructions. It does clearly say "Thermoelectrogenerator" on the front. I can sound out the Greek letters and then sound out the Russian and make some guesses here and there. The electrical language is the same, however...so I'll put some information down here:
There is a range of voltages available...apparently depending on how you connect the terminals...or maybe it will provide all of them at various terminals and you choose what you need. On second glance, it looks like different models of thermoelectrogenerator give different ranges.
1.0 - 1.4 volts at .21 ampere for one model,
1.0 - 1.4 volts at .52 ampere for another,
1.0 - 1.4 volts at .30 ampere for the third model.

Another set of terminals (think that's what they mean) gives you:
80 - 100 volts at 10 milliamps, the other two models give the same voltage at 11 milliamps.
This would be sufficient to power a small one or two tube radio receiver using the peanut tubes that were developed in the early '60s. That should date the generator pretty closely as well. These tubes would take a volt or so to run the filaments (which would double as the thermionic emitter) and the 80 - 100 volts to bias the plate. The technical drawings show connection to a radio apparently made to go with the thermoelectrogenerator, which requires 1.2 volts at one pair of terminals and 90 volts at another pair.
I've got one xerox out to be translated, but the Ukranian doing the translation hasn't called me back lately.
I've just made some guesses based on what I can understand of the document. The rest of it appears to be concerned with operation of the lamp, how to mount everything for best operation, and some technical specs. The lamp itself appears to be a round wick with flame spreader similar to a Rayo, so it should have been producing plenty of both heat and light, almost like an Aladdin.
Chuck